004: [On-Air Consult] Parenting with Patience Across Two Homes with Amanda Berlin

21st November, 2018 Posted under Impressive

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Welcome to the fourth episode of Impressive. Doctor Kimberley chats with Amanda Berlin, a former corporate publicity strategist and currently helps business owners with her expertise on PR. In this on-air consultation, Amanda seeks advice on how to deal with the frustrations when her five-year-old daughter is having a meltdown when trying to learn new things. Enjoy:

  • Learning patience while encouraging kids
  • How co-parenting works in separate households
  • Decisions of a new mom when finding the business suitable for starting a new chapter in her life

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About Impressive

Impressive is a weekly podcast that sheds a new light on the world of parenting. Join host, Dr Kimberley O’Brien PhD, as she delves into real-life parenting issues with CEOs, global ex-pats, entrepreneurs, celebrities, travellers and other hand-picked parents.

In an approachable on-air consultation style, she listens to some of the smartest, kindest parents share theit latest parenting challenge with their incredible kids. Together they brainstorm solutions and Kimberley offer handy tips and valuable resources to help bring out the best in toddlers, teens and in-betweens. Drawing mostly on two decades of experience as a child psychologist, Kimberley also shares her personal insights as mother of two and entrepreneur with a passion for problem-solving.

Transcript

[00:00:08 – 00:00:29] Impressive begins with the words of Dr. Kimberley O’Brien.

Doctor Kimberley: Hello, I’m Doctor Kimberley O’Brien — a child psychologist, entrepreneur, and mom with a passion for problem-solving in family adventures. Join me each week for practical tips and on-air consultations with the smartest, kindest parents and their incredible kids. Find answers faster, do things differently, and take your family further. This is Impressive.
 

[00:00:30 – 00:00:33] This episode is sponsored by BriteChild.com. Now, let’s get started.


[00:00:34 – 00:02:26] Before the interview, Dr. O’Brien welcomes the audience for another episode of Impressive. Her excitement resonates for this and for the consultations coming up as she gives a hint about her next guests for the podcast. And for this episode, it’s Amanda Berlin, the host of Empowered Publicity.

Doctor Kimberley: This is episode four of Impressive and I’m your host, Doctor Kimberley O’Brien. Thanks for joining us this week as we speak to Amanda Berlin, who is a New York-based PR and local media expert, and also the host of Empowered Publicity—a weekly podcast that I highly recommend. And Amanda is also a speaker. She does a lot of things and I saw her speaking last week in L.A. at the BizChix Live Conference, which was a really good opportunity for female entrepreneurs from all around the world to get together and talk about their businesses and share resources. So, that was amazing and I’m really happy to say that I’ll be introducing a bunch of new podcast guests coming up because they’re all high-achieving individuals that are doing things in so many departments like the way they’re growing their businesses and managing their families, and still open to asking for help when it comes to little parenting issues and doing that in an online, in a podcast. It’s just, it’s just humbling and I’m so thankful to be part of that BizChix Live community. So, I look forward to more of those online consultations coming up soon.

If you’d like to find out more about the Impressive podcast, you will come to go to BriteChild.com, that’s B-R-I-T-E-Child-dot-com-forward slash-Impressive to find out about some previous episodes, or click the Subscribe button on your podcast app and the episode will pop up each week on a Monday in Australia.

Alright. So, now, it’s time to listen to Amanda Berlin as she digs into who she is and what she’s done in terms of her business, and then onto some of those parenting challenges around managing a five-year-old and her frustrations. I hope you enjoy. This is Impressive.


[00:02:28 – 00:09:02] Amanda Berlin gives an introduction with the story behind her search for the business that she wanted to be in—from working in the corporate world to being of service to entrepreneurs, business owners, and non-profit organizations.

Amanda: I’m so thrilled for the opportunity to talk to you, and I think that it’s interesting because my business and my daughter were kind of born at the same time, so they’re very much, you know, that the story of my business is very much [intervolved],  than with the story of my parenting and my daughter.

So, I’ve worked for 12 years in the New York City publicity agency world, in the PR world. To make a long story short, I felt like my soul was dying as I was helping companies like pharmaceutical companies and consumer product companies just be louder than their competitions. And, you know, these were like major companies in the U.S., here, from Pfizer and the pharmaceutical world to Brawny and Dove, and the consumer product world. Some of them had great messages and it was a joy to bring their message to wider audiences. But some of them, I felt misaligned with. And certainly, in retrospect, I realized that it wasn’t actually so much that I felt misaligned in the work; it was that I felt misaligned in the corporate culture. And I was working in a company that just did not have good values and good corporate culture. So, morale was really well and I was determined when I actually got released from that job which I, you know, used as the term for when I got to let go because the company eventually went out of business that I felt at the time that I didn’t want to do anything related to communications or PR, I just wanted to go and do something that I felt more of service to the world. So, for about a year, in 2012 to 2013, I kind of was searching around for what my business was going to be. All the while, I’ve gotten married in 2011 and for the entire time that I was married, I was the breadwinner for our family. So, it wasn’t like a situation where… someone actually at the gym recently asked what I did and I told her that I had my own business, and she was like, “So great! that you probably have a husband who helps you, you know, allows you to do that or something like that.” And I was like, “Actually, no.” It’s very important to me that it’s clear that I created this on my own, and I had to figure out how to make ends meet on my own.

So, for the first year, I kind of was trying different things and bringing, making ends meet by bringing in some freelance work in the communications world. But it was only sort of begrudgingly like I didn’t really want to be doing in and I was, I really wanted to be doing… I pursued a life-coaching certification and I pursued some fitness certifications. I really wanted to, I thought I wanted to be in that world. And then, in 2013, in February of 2013, I got pregnant, and I realized being in that position that I was in as the breadwinner of our family, I really have to figure out what I’m doing here.

So, I approached an organization that does some holistic learning, and they hold meditation classes, and coaching certifications in nutrition work, and all of these kinds of classes like in educational institution that I really believed in in New York City. And I said, with this chip on my shoulder, they’re like, this is what I used to do in my old life. I know I could help you, guys. What do you think? Because I just knew I needed work. And the executive director of the institution said to me, “Yes, sounds good. Here is the proposal. You know, here’s a request for a proposal.” And so, as I was putting together the request for proposal, it really dawned on me like a major light bulb moment or anvil to the head that I really liked doing the work of communications for entities that I really believed in. I felt very energized by it. So, I had the realization that I could create a business around translating my expertise that I had earned from like my 10,000 hours, as Malcolm Gladwell would put it, in the corporate world into a service that I could bring to entrepreneurs, and business owners, and non-profits that I really believed in. And it was right at that time, I remembered getting that, getting that contract with that organization, and going in and talking to the executive director, and telling her that I was five months pregnant and that I don’t intend to, I don’t intend to stop working, but I might need to take a little break in order to give birth.

So, that was, it really was at that same moment that, that I felt like I found quote-unquote my business that I found out that I was going to be a mother as well. And just kind of fast forwarding to October, that year when I gave birth, I really didn’t and the result maybe kind of like playing to some other things that we talk about. I didn’t really get to take a maternity leave or have a lot of, you know, that nesting time with my daughter because I had the responsibility of supporting us as well. So, those early years, that first year was really the hardest year of my life, 2014. I said that to my mom recently, that was the hardest year of my life. So, that’s kind of my business.

Now, I work fulltime with entrepreneurs, helping them to figure out what visibilities are going to work for them, what kind of publicity, what kind of collaborations, what partnerships, what efforts are going to get them in front of the people that are going to buy from them and that are going to be their evangelists.


[00:09:02 – 00:11:00] Amanda reveals her thoughts as a separated parent.

Doctor Kimberley: Thank you so much for that introduction, and also I’m going to link in the show notes [throughout] just like we did when you were doing on a coaching [for me] not so long ago.  And to think get that, that podcast out there came really, just do it. So, if that was really motivational and it helped to your birth, the podcast, I’m really interested also in the way that you birth your daughter and your business at the same time. How did you manage to find the balance when you had two really important competing demands in that first year—was that 2014?

Amanda: Yes. It was really hard. It was really hard. I don’t think, it was, it was hard on so many levels. I felt like I wasn’t showing up for either of those tasks to my greatest capacity. So, there was immediate guilt associated with motherhood because I felt like I wasn’t doing a good enough job. I felt like I didn’t fit in with any of the other moms because I went to a new moms group, and they were all talking about like reflux and breastfeeding, and I was like drowning in like, I have to work, I have to make the money, and my husband is lying on the couch, I have to be the mother, I have to be the breadwinner. I felt the pressures on me were so much different than other mothers that I was coming in to contact with. And I didn’t fit in with the working moms because I had a flexible schedule, and I didn’t fit in with the stay at home moms because I had all of these other pressures. So, it was very isolating. And that first year, I was like drowning.


[00:11:01 – 00:15:31] How does a little girl manage to live a life with separated parents?  Amanda makes her five-year-old daughter known to the listeners by sharing how the kid is coping with the situation.

Doctor Kimberley: Yeah, I can relate and that we actually birth onto Quirky Kid the same year as our first daughter was born and going to those mothers groups or play groups. I used to also find kind of, I just couldn’t, I couldn’t actually focus on where I was at. I was thinking, I’ve got things to do at home; I’ve got things to do with work. So, yeah, it is a tricky time for entrepreneurs when they have two important jobs to do. But you found a way through and your business is now thriving. Can you tell us a little bit more about your five-year-old and what’s happening with her? She’s maybe just started school this year. And what’s her name?

Amanda: Yes. So, her birthday is in late October. So, here in the States–in New Jersey—she actually just missed the cut-off for kindergarten. So, she is in her first, in her first year at a public school in Pre-K, which is a great blessing because not every district in our state has a public Pre-K, a fulltime, public Pre-K, so it’s really a great opportunity to have her in the public school, and have her in the age group that she needs to be in. So, her dad and I have been separated since, I guess for about a year and a half now and prior to that, we had kind of separated on and off several times, so I don’t know if she even remembers us ever living together. It does, to me, even seem like a long time ago that we have lived together last. So, you know, I’m certain that there are, actually I’m curious as to what the impact of that is or will be on her, but for the moment she seems happy, she seems happy with the both of us. She seems to prefer her dad, I think, because there’s more YouTube-watching and more candy-eating at his house. And I was talking to a friend earlier today about how she prefers him, and my friend sort of was saying, you know, I was kind of making jokes about it, and she was like, “I recognize you’re using humor to get through this, but it must be challenging.” And I think it really does play into how I felt in the beginning. How I felt like just like I was drowning about first year and I didn’t really, like, I link it all back to that that I didn’t do a good job in the beginning, and I was drowning, and I didn’t connect with her in the way that we should have, and all of these. So, I think there’s a lot of lingering questions for me, but all in all, all the reports I get on her from people who meet her and all of the feedback I get is all positive. She’s happy, and gets along with others and befriends the smallest kid in her class, so that she can be the big kid and be the helper. So, that’s kind of where we are right now.

Doctor Kimberley: Thank you. I feel like just that idea of inconsistent parenting styles when one’s doing one thing and the other is doing the other, it can be so hard to find the balance within these separate households. But kids are usually well at adapting to mom’s rules and dad’s rules, and it can just be there’s little transitions, you know, two or three days sometimes as they adjust to the new rules in the other household. But I also hear that there’s, you know, he’s, too, carrying some guilt from that very first year around. Oh, maybe I didn’t spend enough time with her, or I haven’t bonded with her. But I just want to reassure her, reassure you that I think that where she’s right now where there’s like no conflict in the household and that you’ve moved on to an arrangement, which means that she gets to see both of parents. It sounds like the optimal arrangement, you know.

Amanda: Yeah, I know.

Doctor Kimberley: So, I don’t think she’ll be like holding on to what happened when she was less than four months old.

Amanda: Right. Thank you. That’s good to hear.


[00:15:31 – 00:16:32] Amanda describes the arrangements while they live in separate households.

Doctor Kimberley: Yeah. Now, let’s talk about like the optimal arrangements when it comes to separation. Have you managed to live in the same suburb? Or do you do dropoff, some pickups at the school? How do you kind of manage the access arrangements?

Amanda: So, we actually live on the same street.

Doctor Kimberley: Oh, perfect. That’s amazing.

Amanda: So, just about seven houses down on the same side of the street, so it’s very convenient. Incidentally, right now, it’s evening in New York, and on night where I would typically have her, so I actually picked her up from school and her dad came and picked her up to have dinner with him while I do this interview. So, we’re very amicable and we try to help each other out. You know, there’s obviously little things between the two of us in the way that we handle this interactions that I would love to see tweaked a little bit. But, by and large, I think it’s pretty functional.


[00:16:33 – 00:22:38] Even separation has its perfect timing and reasons. Amanda gives her insights about having to go through separation and how to make it work for the parents and for their child.

Doctor Kimberley: Yes. Have you gotten any tips for other parents going through similar situations in terms of how to create that scenario where you managed to live on the same street and have a really good working relationship? What do you think would be your top take away from that experience? And how can you, what would you suggest that might be the most important ingredient?

Amanda: That’s a really good question. It’s really the first time that I have maybe even been, you know, far enough away from it to feel like I could even offer any kind of advice. So, I thank you for the opportunity to reflect on that. I would say, for me, what was really important to me was to be certain that I was making the right choice in separating. And so, I maybe stayed in it for a little bit longer that I should have, but it was more indifference to my certainty that it was trying to hold on to something that I knew wasn’t going to work. I guess the take away from that is I’ve seen people do it in different ways, which is staying in the relationship and just being passive-aggressive and mean to the other person, so that they would be the one to end it. So that they would get so fed up that you wouldn’t have to do the hard work of actually ending it and pushing them away through passive-aggression and just incivility. And I think that because I really, I don’t pretend that I did it perfectly because I think I could have been stronger in the beginning or trusting myself more to just cut it off earlier, but I was pretty dedicated to not being mean to each other and handling it with respect and civility, above all.

And conversations inevitably evolve from time to time, but I think just remembering that, I guess one of my guiding principles in life, just in general, is like I want to walk away from every as many interactions as possible feeling proud of myself. I don’t want to look back and be like, “man, I was a real whatever,” in that conversation. And sometimes that definitely leads me to hold things in when maybe I shouldn’t or have too much, give someone too much latitude or whatever when I probably should have better boundaries.  But, by and large, I think if you can just remember that you want to walk away feeling proud of yourself, then that’s a good guide.

Doctor Kimberley: Nice one. I like that. And I like, I think I’ll say the idea of your sticking in it until you know what you really want to do, rather than being spontaneous, and then sometimes that’s even more unsettling for the other person. But it sounds like you got to a point where you’re a hundred percent sure of what you wanted to do, and that you’re a role model for your daughter because you’ve found, you’ve created something that you’re proud of, and you’ve managed that in a way that you can hold your head high and feel it’s, it’s the best thing for both of you. So, yeah, I think that sounds like the ultimate, obviously it’s very challenging for parents to make that decision, and no one wants to have a negative impact on their, on their child. But, yeah, research shows that if there is ongoing conflict in parents and they’re not happy, then that’s not the best environment for young persons. So, well done for just taking those steps and doing it in a way that sounds like it’s worked out really, really well.

Amanda: Thank you. Yeah, that was really one of my biggest motivators. I just felt like a shell of a person. I remembered actually a friend of mine who I met through my coaching certification. We became really close, and she was a little bit older than me, maybe 10 or 15 years older than me, and maybe even more than that. So, she had lived some more life than I had and she told… I remember like, early on, when I first met her, something she’s said stuck in my head that she had just come back to New York where she was from, from living in upstate New York, which is vastly, you know, it’s just so different. It may as well be a different state. She had gotten divorce and she came back to New York City, and she said, “Amanda, I was a shell of a woman. I didn’t even recognize myself,” when she left her marriage, and I was, I was seeing that. You know, there’s a reason why that’s stuck in my head. When she said it to me, I did that coach training in 2011 maybe, and in 2014 was when I was recognizing that I need to leave my relationship. So, there was a reason why that’s stuck in my head. I realized that I just wasn’t showing off as the person that I wanted to be in life, and that now I have this daughter who I needed to, I believe that I needed to make whatever change I needed to make in order to show up as the person that I wanted her to know.

Doctor Kimberley: Mm-hmm. That’s really powerful, and I’m so grateful to you for sharing like it is. It’s quite personal, but you’re just doing it in a way that is really inspiring for other, other people in similar situations. And we know that separation is really common. You know that 51% of relationships in Australia end in divorce and separation, but it’s not often talked about and what is loved that you bring positivity to it. So, I really appreciate you doing that. Thanks so much, Amanda.

Amanda: Thank you.


[00:22:39 – 00:27:51] Amanda shares her frustrations that are triggered by her daughter’s melting down and almost having that ‘quitting’ attitude. But through these, she learns to have that patience when dealing with her daughter and just give her the encouragement when she needs it.

Doctor Kimberley: I just wondered now, moving on, you talked a little bit about the transition between homes, and we talked about parenting inconsistencies around YouTube or [sweets] at one house, but maybe not the other. Can you tell me what your current, your greatest parenting challenges at the moment?

Amanda: So, my greatest parenting challenge at the moment, I would say, is this is something that’s actually relevant like right now, today, as in the last two days, but I’ve noticed it as a bit of a trend or characteristic. And so, I found these drawing tutorials on YouTube for kids, and it’s a dad and a daughter—the daughter is seven, and I don’t know how old the videos are, but in the video, she’s seven. And they sit side by side, and he, with a piece of paper and a Sharpie marker, and he guides her in doing these simple drawings, and they both create their drawings, and they are teaching the kids to draw along the way.

And so we found, so we did one yesterday. It was a long day. My daughter had school, and then she had gymnastics, and then we were eating dinner and doing this drawing thing, and she just melted down, like hardcore because her drawing didn’t look like theirs. And she’s five, like she doesn’t have the dexterity like I know that, you, not to expect her drawing to look like this 35-year-old dad’s drawing, a professional artist. But she melted down, and she just was inconsolable and just didn’t want to do it anymore. And then, you know, I tried to explain to her that, and they say in the video: Everyone’s drawing is going to look different.  That it’s not better or worse, it’s just different. And everyone has different abilities. This is the first time and I added to that explanation that this is the first time that she was trying it, and the only way to get better is to keep trying it, but she just was inconsolable. And then, today, the same thing. She wanted to try it again, and the same thing happened.

Today, I guess I tried to be as patient as possible both times, but I don’t have a high threshold for a quitting attitude, so I needed to kind of measure my response and be encouraging also, trying to instill in her there’s “you don’t give up” kind of mantra. But I’ve noticed it in the past, so back over during the summer, we were playing outside with her friends and we did this kind of like run to that corner, then run back, and run over and touch the bucket and then run back. And we set up this little obstacle course for them, and it was getting to be time to leave, so it’s going to be like the last time we did it, and she just pooped out and wouldn’t do it. She was, again, inconsolable—kept saying like, she didn’t do it right the last time, so she wasn’t going to do it again. And I would try to tell her, “Well, this is the last chance,” and she just wouldn’t do it. So, I find it challenging to A) find my own patience in these moments because of the melting down and the quitting B) encourage her to try even though it may not be perfect and like how that you’ve explained that. That would be the scene. I’m the communicator in my job, but I find it so challenging in my personal relationships and in my relationship with my daughter to find the find the right words.

Doctor Kimberley: That’s a good question. I think often it was so much the words, but it’s also in the modeling of the behavior, so the two feelings that I get when you tell that story are frustration and how to help your five-year-old cope with frustration when things don’t pan out as she wished. And also, there’s that element of frustration coming through in you, and that she’s making a lot of noise, and she’s not trying, and that kind of pushes your buttons in it. You feel like she’s quitting, so it feels like you’re both feeling frustrated at that point. So, I would try not to use too many words just to slow everything down and show her how you cope with frustration, like it might be that you just walk away, take some deep breaths, have a laugh with it. It’s so hard, isn’t it? It’s so hard, I know. It is so hard just to kind of give her the words because when she’s making all that noise and melting down, if she could just say, “Mom, it’s just so hard.” That would be a massive breakthrough because she’s using the words, rather than her body to express that same frustration.

Amanda: Right.


[00:27:52] Dr. O’Brien teaches Amanda the methods on how to lessen her daughter’s meltdown.

Doctor Kimberley: There are certain, I’d like to use visual resources in the clinic when I work, so instead of trying to explaining to them what frustration might feel like, using pictures, so there’s a resource that Quirky Kid has produced called Face It, and it’s 35 different feelings, faces that they can, you can use. It’s like a poster as well as some view coasters, kind of cardboard cards, and you can use it as a game where you match up the faces and put them on the poster, and as you put it down, say, “That’s what I felt yesterday when I couldn’t untie that knot. That’s so frustrating.” So, giving examples while you putting down the cards, or you could just use as a point chart and stick it on the fridge. And at a time when she’s not melting down and she’s happy, you know, first thing in the morning, you could be saying, “Remember yesterday when we played that game? You know, your Auntie’s house and [topped] in the bucket. I felt like this is the beginning, and then I felt like this at the end. How did you feel?” And hopefully she’ll point to how she felt, and go, “Mmm.” Because so she’s kind of tuning into that feeling, rather than closing down and say, “I don’t want to talk about it.” It’s like you share how you feel. She shares how she feels, and then eventually try and get some words to match that face. And also, you could draw it out. So, if you wanted to do that little boxes, like before, during, and after, you could kind of, if she’s open to it, come back to it and say, “This is how I felt before when we’re playing. There’s the bucket. And this is how I felt after. We’re at home and we were calm. How did you feel in the middle? What was going on there?” If she can’t put it into words, let’s work out how we can take that piece out of the puzzle, so we can do the fun times with the bucket game and start, and then going home feeling good. And then, work out how do we take that piece out of the middle? Because it wasn’t a great piece. We can walk away, take a deep breath, use our words, and then you can even role play it for next time. So, if I feel like frustrated like that I’m just going to say something like… just give me a minute. Or I’ll just put the tee, the time out, kind of sign out using a nonverbal, just to say. Let’s just pause here for a sec, and then we’ll skip that beat and go into that good part that comes afterwards.

Amanda: That’s amazing. That’s fascinating. That sounds really useful. I’m glad that this is recorded, so I can listen back. I did take some notes. I think it’s very, this is, so, as it was describing the scenario, I was actually wondering to myself, is this significant enough? Like I really want to use my time with you as best as I can, but it actually feels like really important because I know for myself I struggled with frustration and because I would cry, I would cry as a child, and I never could pinpoint like why I was crying, and certainly I didn’t realize that I was crying out of frustration until I was much older. And I was always told just to stop crying. And so being able to identify the emotion, I think is something that I needed to learn and need to learn how to teach my daughter.

Doctor Kimberley: I love it. I might call this episode something like struggling with frustration because I think it’s so common for parents and kids to feel the same way. Sometimes it’s just, it might feel like anger but it’s not anger, it’s triggered by usually that need for support. I just need some help right now. Where’s the help when I need it? So, being able to express that before it starts to escalate to frustration, and then when you become nonverbal and emotional, then you can really ask for help. So, if you can recognize that early, get what you need, and then come down from that feeling. Yeah, everyone feels more in control and that’s usually feels the safest when we’re in control of our emotions.

Amanda: Right. I love that. Very helpful.

Doctor Kimberley: I love talking to you, Amanda. I feel like this is just kind of the cracks of the Impressive podcast, talking to really accomplished individuals that are doing so well in so many areas who are also selflessly able to ask questions about how they can tweak these little parenting issues because I think sometimes, talking to a psychologist is something parents that wait too long to do. They might get to across this point. And then, it takes longer to fix. So, these little things like what I love to kind of brainstorms. So, thank you for asking.

Amanda: Oh, absolutely. This is gold. I so appreciate your insight and I know this is going to help me on many levels because I do fear that my impatience has a negative effect on my relationship with my daughter. And being able to go to some of these tools, I think, will help us both to just kind of move more easily through these challenging moments.


[00:33:00 – 00:35:09] How does Amanda want things to look like if separation didn’t happen? On one side, she wanted her family to be like it should have been. On the other side, she thinks that what has happened is just good for the three of them.

Doctor Kimberley: Love it. Love it. So, just lastly, before we wrap up, I wondered how you would like things to be. So, if you had a magic wand and you could just make things as good as they can be with your five-year-old, how would it look on a daily and a weekly basis?

Amanda: On a daily and a weekly basis? I see us as friends. I see us as compadres, as two people who have adventures together and do fun things together and have great conversations. But I also see us with that healthy separation between friend and parent. I want to instill in her values that were instilled in me like work ethic and integrity, and even things that I think I adapt, adopted later in life like self-love and self-care, and giving yourself what you need, and self-acceptance. So, I hope that I can be a great teacher as well as someone who allows her to be who she is.

Doctor Kimberley: Sounds amazing. I really can’t wait to meet your daughter at some point in the future.

Amanda: Oh, I would love that.

Doctor Kimberley: Thank you so much for joining us this week on Impressive. And thanks so much again to Amanda Berlin for being such a gracious guest. If you’d like to be part of the conversation, you’re welcome to join us in the Facebook group, if you search up Impressive Podcast, and let us know what you think of this week’s episode. Otherwise, you can also click Subscribe and you’ll find about new episodes as they drop usually on a Monday in Australia. It’s been a pleasure talking to you again this week. I’m your host, Doctor Kimberley O’Brien and this was Impressive.

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